"Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope, and happiness out of the air around them. Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them. Get too near a dementor and every good feeling, every happy memory will be sucked out of you. If it can, the dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself... soulless and evil. You'll be left with nothing but the worst experiences of your life."
“That's bad enough, but it gets worse. The primary danger of the dementor is the Dementor's Kiss—in which the dementor clamps its mouth over a human's and sucks out the soul, leaving the body alive, but presumably vegetative. The soul ceases to exist.” ~ Jenna
The dementors are an amazing idea. Creepy, swooping, demonic beings of darkness and filth, they are the perfect horror element - tailored to the individual and apparently indestructible. I love their role in this book - to drive Harry into a deeper confrontation with his traumatic past. But the dementors fail in one essential and deeply troubling sense. The ‘dementor’s kiss’ steals the soul of the victim. My frustration with this all-too-powerful ability of evil is that the soul is then reduced to merely a thing - something that can be taken away through no fault of the individual..and I can’t help but be disturbed by such a view of the person. Our souls are not attachments to our person, they are a part of us, and the idea that they can be lost completely merely by being in the wrong place at the wrong time is problematic for the characters and the world overall. It is similar to the sense we get from the books and from the interviews that Voldemort is evil by nature, that he’s never had the ability or opportunity to love and grow in goodness. Evil, we seem to be being told by Rowling, is a specter in the night, waiting to absorb us into itself unless we are powerful enough to deflect it - power, talent, and learning are the keys in this case, not goodness and love. I wish Rowling had given another option, a way of deflecting the dementors that was less learned and more a part of the goodness of the person - if, for example, Neville had been less affected and more dismissive toward them because of his purity of heart and loving character, while Harry’s tendency to rage gave them an ‘in’ to his deeper fears..Or if the dementors could feed on the terrors of everyone equally, but would be unable to suck up the soul of the innocent (cough. SPOILER. Cough)
But Rowling doesn’t give this ‘out’ and while I’m grateful that she realizes and portrays some fates as being worse than death, I wish she’d considered the implications of the free and unfettered taking of a soul. As it stands, her souls seem lacking. I wish I could clarify in my mind exactly what this means for the ‘theology’ of the Series, but all of that is still sort of in flux. The creatures themselves are fantastic, but the failing is so frustratingly complete.
Now there is an explanation from Rowling herself on the subject indicating that the dementors are Depression personified, and Jenna agrees that:
the imagery of a malevolent creature that sucks feeling and hope away from you, that leaves you with a cold void space where your heart should be, that strands you in the company
of only your worst fears and memories—yeah. That. That is what it feels like.
But though the Dementors as Depression image is very good and very workable, Depression alone can’t destroy the soul. It can lead the individual to destroy his own soul, but on it’s own, no, Depression doesn’t have that power. Mental states, no matter how painful don’t have the ability to damn. So I’m not certain where exactly Rowling meant to go with that imagery and I’m hoping you all will want to discuss it ad nauseum, because I do. One thought I’m playing with, to see if I can make it work is The Noonday Demon of the desert fathers..but as of right now, I’m still searching.
So share your thoughts! Do the Dementors work? And what are the “implications beyond bearing” you see in their horrible ability to deprive the victim of his own soul?
In response to:
ReplyDelete"But Rowling doesn’t give this ‘out’ and while I’m grateful that she realizes and portrays some fates as being worse than death, I wish she’d considered the implications of the free and unfettered taking of a soul. As it stands, her souls seem lacking. I wish I could clarify in my mind exactly what this means for the ‘theology’ of the Series, but all of that is still sort of in flux. The creatures themselves are fantastic, but the failing is so frustratingly complete."
The Dementer's Kiss, I agree, weakens the realism of the dementer's dynamic. From my theological studies, I'd suggest the reason for this weakness is because the human soul as separateable from the human body is basically gnosticism -- the duality of soul and body. And gnosticism, for believing Christians of the traditional sort, is a heresy (which means, we as believers don't agree that the soul and body are separateable in this manner -- it's not how we were created). I think the dementers as creatures are vivid and effective, and serve some really important plot functions within the story, but they don't move me (to fear, in this case) the way they would if, say, they functioned the way Masha wishes they would, where the victim's fear and rage feed their ability to have mastery over him, whereas a victim's purity of heart protects from this overpowering (love this idea, btw). But then, this idea is clearly Patristic, and I'm not sure there's evidence that Rowling has studied and/or practices Eastern Christian spirituality or mysticism. My gosh, imagine if she had though? How Patristic spirituality might have altered the series and story arc? That would have been *awesome*.
Oh my goodness, Donna, I wish! But now I'm going to have a harder time seeing best parts of the series and not thinking..'but what would this look like if Rowling had infused it with Patristic spirituality.." - I could end up writing fan-fiction if we're not careful ;)
DeleteI think the introduction of the dementors begins the trend in this book of being sort of "almost, but not quite" in my mind..a book of unrealized potential.. because they have so much potential..but the whole concept of the 'kiss' sort of kills it.
I love the clarity your response brings to my mumbled sort of rejection to the concept of soul stealing! Thanks for writing it out so well!
Fantastic post. Just superb. Donna, I love your thoughts, too!
ReplyDeletethough the Dementors as Depression image is very good and very workable, Depression alone can’t destroy the soul
Agreed. I think the depression reference is pretty strictly to the effects of the presence of dementors around an individual, not to the Kiss. Rowling wasn't specific in her interview comments, or if she was, that didn't get reported, but I don't see how the Kiss could be relevant to mental disease.
I have typically analogized the Kiss to evil and damnation, in that temptation must be resisted or it can destroy you. But at best, that's obviously not a clear allegory. It certainly doesn't do away with this:
I wish Rowling had given another option, a way of deflecting the dementors that was less learned and more a part of the goodness of the person - if, for example, Neville had been less affected and more dismissive toward them because of his purity of heart and loving character, while Harry’s tendency to rage gave them an ‘in’ to his deeper fears..Or if the dementors could feed on the terrors of everyone equally, but would be unable to suck up the soul of the innocent (cough. SPOILER. Cough)
...which is my favorite part of this whole piece. What a brilliant idea. :D
For this:
Evil, we seem to be being told by Rowling, is a specter in the night, waiting to absorb us into itself unless we are powerful enough to deflect it - power, talent, and learning are the keys in this case, not goodness and love.
I think this might be the result of her writing a creature that had one clear symbolic analogue (depression) and at least one other allegorical possibility (evil) that worked at cross purposes with the main. Knowledge is key to fighting depression. That's a learned skill (not to dismiss other keys like medication, of course). But then we have a creature that is also evil--not a huge leap for the mind of the depressive to take; it's incredibly difficult to separate the monster itself from the scrupulosity/bitterness/rage/despair/etc. that it exaggerates. But the evil thing has this shuddery horrible ability to suck out your soul, and that's a great idea for a fictional monster, and all; perhaps Rowling just never got around to thinking through putting limits on it. I want there to be limits on it just due to my own ideas of a humane cosmology.
From the theological perspective, however, "power, talent, and learning" are definitely Gnostic salvific ideals, but Rowling spends so much of the overall story arguing that the only important weapon against evil is love that I can't see her flat-out contradicting herself in this case. Not intentionally, at least.
And that's all I've got for tonight. Maybe I'll have more brainpower tomorrow. ;)
Off the top of my head, I think it works, and I think it works a little better than it might otherwise because the dementors are a legitimate threat to kids and basically good people, and because they can do permanent horrifying damage. It makes the HP-verse a very scary place, but it works.
ReplyDeleteThey're this very dangerous, non-reasonable force that the Ministry has attempted to turn to its own ends, and in doing so they've not only created a SERIOUSLY cruel and unusual system of punishment (I get that Evil Sorcerers are a hard lot to keep locked up, but jeeeez) but also an ongoing situation in which everyone else is potentially threatened by them as well. That becomes more of a thing later, when [SPOILERS], but it's already looming here in Book Three. Like a creepy, sentient atom bomb made of sadness and despair. That aspect of the dementors would lose some of its creepy horribleness if resistance to them were tied to personal virtue or innocence. The dementors affect everyone, and the Ministry knows this, and here they are anyway, because someone thought it was worth the risk.
I don't really have a clear idea of what "the soul" is in HP and how it's supposed to work, though of course we get in-canon assurance that various things can happen to it. I'm not completely convinced that there's any wizard consensus on it, either. This might be sloppy world-building, but it could just as well be that beyond a certain level of detail, wizards aren't totally sure how their magic works. They might even be using "soul" as a blanket descriptor for a bunch of potentially separate phenomena.
"You can't make an omelette without breaking a few minds" -- The Ministry, apparently :(
DeleteI wonder how much of it is this:
ReplyDeleteI'm not completely convinced that there's any wizard consensus on it, either. This might be sloppy world-building, but it could just as well be that beyond a certain level of detail, wizards aren't totally sure how their magic works. They might even be using "soul" as a blanket descriptor for a bunch of potentially separate phenomena.
I mean, the wizarding world is pretty much completely irreligious. And they obviously are completely uninterested in the goodness-or-lackthereof of the beings they employ (at least, on an official level). There seems to be no place for religious or philosophical reflection on the nature of magic or the person..or the soul - so it is possible and semi-believeable that something else is happening in the Kiss that, because they are -as a group- pretty much uninterested in details, they just assume the soul is taken when in fact it's more like a coma..or a cocoon of depression with a tiny, unaided little soul still inside and fighting (almost as depressing a thought).
From the theological perspective, however, "power, talent, and learning" are definitely Gnostic salvific ideals, but Rowling spends so much of the overall story arguing that the only important weapon against evil is love that I can't see her flat-out contradicting herself in this case. Not intentionally, at least.
My little fan-fic ideal doesn't seem to be what Rowling is going for, and her use of the kiss still gives me the creepy sort of feeling that despite arguing again and again that love is the only important weapon, she herself can't accept that idea, and when she falls back on her own imagination, only the Gnostic ideals can save her..which then becomes a fascinating idea for thought, because she might just be trying to sort of 'write herself' out of her natural and problematic worldview, but has to be actively focused on her goal to avoid falling back into her nature gnostic state of being..I feel fonder toward her when I can think of it that way..don't you?
The ministry prison system is so inappropriate it's not even funny. Especially when we already know they send people there 'just in case' and whatnot #hagridwasNOTtheproblem #spoilersgalore #ikindalikehashtags
There might be wizard philosophers out there. I don't think there's anything in HP to exclude the possibility. But there isn't consensus among Muggle philosophers (or Muggle neurologists) about things like The Nature of Consciousness, either. There could plausibly be even less in Wizarding, due to the special challenges of testing claims about magic. I think I've actually talked myself into believing that this is a World-Building Win
DeleteI don't think I can speculate too much on whether JKR is trying to write herself out of dualism or anything; that seems like a leap at this point (I may have opinions after I've re-read the whole thing). I'm not super familiar with "the Gnostic worldview" to begin with, so *shrug* I dunno. But I can totally defend the idea that wizards use a lot of dualistic metaphors for processes they don't completely understand, the way Muggles do all the time.
Re: Azkaban -- It really, really is. It would ALREADY be bad enough if they were able to "successfully" "justify" it by claiming that it was only ever used for really super -strong totally remorseless Voldemorts who were impossible to detain by any other means and would just go and commit genocide again the minute you let them have an exercise room, but we already know that is not the case and hahahahaha NOPE.
CLOSE AZKABAN NOW. :( :( :((
Laura, you seriously just saved me forty-five minutes of commenting time with the above. ^^^ Thanks!
DeleteMasha,
I mean, the wizarding world is pretty much completely irreligious
I actually disagree. :) Rowling kept overt religious practice and education out of her story, which makes the Wizarding World look secular, but the existence of things like godfathers and Scripture quotes on tombstones suggest that religion is at least involved in private practice. Now, some of that's quite likely due to being British, where up until recently most everyone was at least nominally Anglican (and those who weren't were often Catholic, Protestant, or Muslim), but like as not, the British wizards at least went through the same basic spiritual drift as the rest of their countryfolk. In fact, I think Rowling called Hogwarts a multi-faith school at some point, and it's certainly ethnically diverse enough to suggest that.
I suspect that wizards have more or less the same spiritual and philosophical questions as Muggles, though dementors and Horcruxes and ghosts-who-choose-to-become-pale-imprints-of-themselves throw obvious wrenches in the works.
As for Gnostic dualism, I believe there's an anti-Potter Christian out there who argues against the books based on that very idea. I forget her name--something Scandinavianish, I think. Maybe O'Brien gets into that, too; I can't recall. I don't see it. I can imagine Rowling writing her way out of an unbearable agnosticism, because that's something I'd do myself--but agnosticism, the belief that we can't know, not gnosticism, the belief that (a certain kind of esoteric) knowledge is imperative.
Even the Patronus charm--that's a tool for defense, something that can be learned as a way of protecting oneself and others from a dementing. But it's a shield, not a means to power. It sounds more like something out of Ephesians 6 than a way to advance in the mysteries of the universe.
CLOSE AZKABAN NOW. Now I have this idea of making a posterboard sign, dressing as a wizard dressed as a Muggle, and going to sit out in front of the courthouse on Friday night with the regular protesters. There's probably still someone with a Guantanamo sign I could sit next to. Do you think that would get me in trouble? :P
Jenna, you should bring your CLOSE AZKABAN campaign to MISTI-Con 2015!
DeleteThat's right!! We can't forget about MISTI-Con 2015!!!!! We are all going .. right???
DeleteOooh...I want to find that Scandinavian-hater...we might be friends...maybe..if she doesn't judge me for going to MISTI-Con with you all!
I know you disagree :) .. but really, apart from Biblical quotes used in an almost entirely literary way for the most part, and godfathers who's role never extends past the cultural..I don't see it. As for Hogwart's being multi-faith..why is it none of the many faiths are in any way a visible part of any student's life? Unless it's multi-faith meaning all are neglected equally? (Not trying to sound snarky..I really don't see any evidence of actual religiosity other than cultural carry-over).
That said..I'm no expert.
I want to read that woman's thoughts so much right now..but maybe..writing out of her unbearable agnosticism..in a culture sort of addicted to being 'in the know' might not produce a similar tone???
And the patronus charm still takes a certain about of skill and 'power' in the sense of directed will of the wizard, right? Definitely a shield though, and not a weapon..
Re: Azkaban -- It really, really is. It would ALREADY be bad enough if they were able to "successfully" "justify" it by claiming that it was only ever used for really super -strong totally remorseless Voldemorts who were impossible to detain by any other means and would just go and commit genocide again the minute you let them have an exercise room, but we already know that is not the case and hahahahaha NOPE.
Exactly..it's strange that EVERYONE goes to Azkaban..it's a holding tank for uncertain-possible-criminals and the forever home of The Evilest People in England..and they all get the same treatment - in varying degrees (?) right? Not ok.
As for Hogwart's being multi-faith..why is it none of the many faiths are in any way a visible part of any student's life?
DeleteBecause Rowling was trying not to write an overtly religious story. :P And the way that's typically done in pop culture nowadays is to pretend religion doesn't exist. Not to present different religions side by side in action, but to hide everything under a secular screen.
And by nowadays, I mean ten years ago. That door is creaking open a little, I think.
I FORGOT ABOUT MISTI-CON.
Oh. Now... I might have the wrong person.... I just think she's the one who argues that the series is gnostic. Feel free to Google "berit kjos harry potter" and knock yourself out. I've got too much to do this afternoon for fact-checking.... if it's not her, it's probably the guy known in fandom as He Who Must Not Be Named. I'd have to send that in an email because he at least used to Google himself and argue with anyone who contradicted him.
DeleteIf you DO Google her, let me know if I got you the right name! I KNOW someone out there argues that the series is gnostic. Warning: they'll use that to argue that no good Christian should read the books... but you handle reading annoying and argumentative people better than anyone I know, so you should be okay. ;)
DeleteSorry about the multiple comments! I kept forgetting things I meant to say...
Hahahaha, the word verification is "lexperts"; that's got to be the team of specialized henchmen who surround Lex Luthor, right?? :P
I love multiple comments!!!! I did google her..I don't get the impression we'd be friend though :( but I haven't had tons of time to read her..and I haven't even looked up mr. google-selfie-guy..
DeleteDon't forget about Misti-Con !!!!! I'm Relying on you to make it out here for the whole thing!!!
M., I am operating under the assumption that MISTI-Con is still on, and thanks to this conversation I am planning my CLOSE AZKABAN IN 2015 pamphlets as we speak. Want to join the inter-faith coalition against inhumane conditions in Wizarding prisons?
ReplyDeletetotally part of the inter-faith coalition!!!! Are we going to have t-shirts too???
DeleteIT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE
DeleteThat's what horrifies me about the dementors and makes me all the more grateful that we exist in a world where one's soul cannot merely cease to be like that. Rowling's fatal mistake--if we want to carry the depression metaphor to its fullest--is in emotionalizing the soul. The soul is more than feeling, it's got an intellectual element to it (I think Aristotle and Plato touch on this?) So a soul can be thrust into the pit of despair, but the ultimate sin is an intellectual denial of God's goodness.
ReplyDeleteOoh..good point! And if the soul isn't choosing denial or rejection..it's 'emotions' or it's sense of despair don't translate to actual soul-losing despair..over emotionalizing being (I think) one of Rowling's bigger flaws as a writer..though, I can't really blame her much for it, seeing as it's one of the bigger flaws in pop-writing of all sorts (including the pop-Catholic gurus of America..was that too harsh to say??) :)
DeleteActually, I agree with this, and I think her fatal flaw extends to over-emotionalizing love, too.
DeletePossibly I should've told you to sit down before I said that. :P
On Jenna's point: I do get why Rowling would chose to remove all reference to religion entirely. I'm not sure it would be the path I would take. I would worry it was a little _too_ obvious for some, not obvious enough for others. But Tolkien chose a similar path by leaving out religious practice in tLotR--which is pretty glaring if you think of it from a world-building perspective, given the seamlessness and beauty of everything else in Arda in Middle Earth. But to explicitly put his Faith in there might have compromised the beauty of the stories, and to make up one for it would have been to shut it out entirely, being something that It was not, by its very definition. I don't think he could have or should have done it any other way.
ReplyDeleteRowling does something similar but with less success because her word-building is more problematic. Where Tolkien's is unflinchingly Catholic, down to the tiniest detail, what I have seen from Rowling is not as definite, which leaves room for conjecture and misinterpretation, even for the scrupulous studiers like us.
..but relationship to 'gods' isn't lacking in LotR completely..there's a veneration of Elbereth among the Elves and the Dunedain, and there's a reverence for Orome among the Rohirrim..and there's a permeating spiritual reality..so while there's no connection to organized religion, the religious element is fed in a way that it isn't in the Harry Potter books..
DeleteRowling does something similar but with less success because her word-building is more problematic. Where Tolkien's is unflinchingly Catholic, down to the tiniest detail, what I have seen from Rowling is not as definite, which leaves room for conjecture and misinterpretation, even for the scrupulous studiers like us.
I guess the difference I see is that Tolkien sees a spiritual need, which must be filled by something Other, even if not an organize worship, whereas Rowling doesn't display any similar need among her characters that I can see...But Jenna???? You might have something to say on that.. :)
Yes, I do recognize the permeating spiritual reality in Tolkien in a way that I don't (so far) in Rowling. Maybe it's to come. . .?
DeleteAnd so far, I haven't seen the need to seek the Other in HP, unless it's Harry's deep emptiness in relation to having lost his family. He fills that emptiness with the love of friends, but it's not the same as a spiritual being, is it?
GIVE ME TILL BOOK SEVEN. I don't have time tonight, and I need a certain graveside scene. Although chances are, it isn't going to be obvious enough to satisfy a Tolkien fan. ;) Though, honestly, if I hadn't read The Silmarillion--well, most of The Silmarillion... I don't know if I'd spot the spiritual yearning in LotR, either. (We can argue about that when we do that book club... or maybe I'll catch it on the third read. ;))
DeleteOH MY GOODNESS PLEASE DO A MIDDLE EARTH BOOK CLUB. #yesisaidmiddleearth #silmarillionplushobbitandlotr #kthxbai
ReplyDeleteAlready in the works, Donna! c; (After HPBC!)
DeleteYay! :)
Delete